Afghanistan.

chronos wrote:we certainly have every right to be there.

Can you explain More Chronos?

chronos wrote:we certainly have every right to be there.

i agree.

I forget which website but one has a thermometer for what we could have spent the money on. Years ago it was upto 5 super hospitals, one new medical research centre, 35 schools, 50 fire engines, 10 of which would be turntable, 300 new nurses, 100 doctors, 675 new police.

Ian Dury was bang on the money.

If we have the right to invade them,
Does that mean they have the right to invade us?

Is that anywhere near Hawaii?

Why would they invade us?

who is us? I don't think have enuf scuba gear to get here.

I quote Vil, lets, I presume he means the West - Britain, Europe......that's who I mean anyway

Don't lend them any lets

Tytonidae wrote:Why would they invade us?

Not why they would invade us Tytonidae.
But do they have a reciprocal moral right to do so.
Or is our moral right to invade predicated on the fact that we
have tanks and planes and they have none..?

They may have the moral right, if it were obvious that 'they' could improve the West in any way whatsoever. My point being, that I might consider it worth invading that place, merely on the grounds of them passing a law, allowing men to starve women if they don't comply to sexual demands. I wouldn't - but you see my point.

I ask you a genuine question Vil. What part of these places' way of life do you envy? I know the West is far far from perfect, it's selfish and corrupt, in part but what the hell do these places have to teach us?

Vilipend wrote:

Tytonidae wrote:Why would they invade us?

Not why they would invade us Tytonidae.
But do they have a reciprocal moral right to do so.
Or is our moral right to invade predicated on the fact that we
have tanks and planes and they have none..?

Is`nt that part of the reason we are there, to stop terrorists being trained and supplied with equiptment and coming to western countries to cause death and destruction.

Mmm! - I wouldn't like them and similar, to have any more capability...

Snookerballs wrote:

Vilipend wrote:

Tytonidae wrote:Why would they invade us?

Not why they would invade us Tytonidae.
But do they have a reciprocal moral right to do so.
Or is our moral right to invade predicated on the fact that we
have tanks and planes and they have none..?

Is`nt that part of the reason we are there, to stop terrorists being trained and supplied with equiptment and coming to western countries to cause death and destruction.

That is one of the reasons we are told we are there Snooker.
Me I don't believe a word of it...

Tytonidae wrote:They may have the moral right, if it were obvious that 'they' could improve the West in any way whatsoever. My point being, that I might consider it worth invading that place, merely on the grounds of them passing a law, allowing men to starve women if they don't comply to sexual demands. I wouldn't - but you see my point.

I ask you a genuine question Vil. What part of these places' way of life do you envy? I know the West is far far from perfect, it's selfish and corrupt, in part but what the hell do these places have to teach us?

I don't think we have improved the lives of the Afghan people one jot Tyton.
Apart from the corrupt puppet narco-barons whom we have placed in power.

And to answer your question about what I envy in Afghanistan,
I think I can give an honest answer in two words:
Absolutely nothing!
Peace!

Maybe not, yet, I didn't say we had - I was answering to your, 'would they have a moral right to invade us'..I'm saying, maybe they would, if 'they' had anything to teach us.

I asked Vil because you seem to intellectually defend these countries positions, yet there is nothing at all to like about them. You choose the West, I choose the West and given a chance, free people will choose the Western way.

I think there's a mis-match in the way these points are argued. Some of us argue it up front, as it were, on what we see and hear and deduce and some of us see deceit and conspiracy at every turn; Like America is playing some overarching game with everyone.

I suppose we choose the West because we have little choice Tyton,
it's what we know and where our people are...
Intellectually one tries to defend "these countries"
because they are the victims of our expansion and aggression.
Be they (historically) the Boer, the Indian, the aboriginal, or the Irish.
Or the Afghan.

'these countries' for want of a better description! you knew what I meant though.

Tytonidae wrote:I think there's a mis-match in the way these points are argued. Some of us argue it up front, as it were, on what we see and hear and deduce and some of us see deceit and conspiracy at every turn; Like America is playing some overarching game with everyone.

I think we all argue our points from what we see and hear and deduce Tyton.
Certainly there are degrees of belief in the honesty or deceit of our governments...

Tytonidae wrote:'these countries' for want of a better description! you knew what I meant though.

Of course Tyton!

No Vil, not entirely true. Yes, we're here, it's what we know, we're in it, our choices are limited, though you made one - but I mean, our way of life is the best way and that, given 'choice' most of us would choose it.

You go far back with these, undisputable, crimes of the past but when will they move on, join in, get their thinking into the 21st century, come on Vil. Archaic springs to mind.

But "our way of life" in the West is not monolithic is it?
I for example reject the television, the motor-car, the supermarket...
(not note the computer!)
What we mean by the Western way of life is physically and morally destructive and our present wealth is not sustainable even in the short-term.
Archaic perhaps compared to us but as Faulkner said;
"The past is not dead, it is not even the past"
And that is true nowhere as much as in Afghanistan.

Further, these "indisputable crimes" are not confined to the olden days,
but are continuing and will continue.
I would suggest that the war against Iraq with its million dead would come under that category.
Afghanistan is only just beginning.

Choice and lack of rigidity is a good thing Vil and it's what we have. I think the West is selfish, I've conceeded this before and it must be worked on.
You reject the things you do because it suits you. I can see it suiting you to shop locally for yourself, the quality the banter, I don't like TV much myself, too passive and perhaps you do not require a car - but you make these choices and I suspect they would be different ones in different circumstances. You seem to highlight what is good in the West.


I think that there is a global war, that is worth fighting, against extremism. I hope for the day that North Korea is forced into submission.

There certainly is a war, but I believe it is to gain control of resources, and to feed the war machine.
To maintain the lifestyles of the wealthy nations.
But they are only buying time...
Our Western lifestyle for all its pleasantness isn't sustainable, the planet can't support our greed.
N.Korea won't be attacked: they have the bomb.